On this episode of Fired Up, Ian, editor of Front Office Sports, a digital publication, provides a view into the many facets of the business of sports with an eye to the future and how leagues and teams are responding – now more rapidly because of such a disruption – to our shifting cultural tide.

During his career, Ian has covered a variety of topics, but currently focuses on the business of the sports industry ranging from leagues and teams to media and technology companies.

His stories have appeared across several outlets and mediums including Bloomberg Businessweek and Bloomberg.com, The Financial Times and FT.com, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, the SportsBusiness Journal and SportsBusiness Daily, The Washington Post, The New York Observer, Crain’s New York Business, Yahoo! Finance and other outlets. His reporting has been cited on/by ESPN’s The Athletic, Sports Illustrated, Yahoo! Sports, and numerous other outlets.

Chris Wise:

Welcome to the Fired Up Podcast to let people know what’s happening in the front office and all around the sports business, inside the sports that not everyone sees, but everyone is impacted by. With us today is Ian Thomas, editor of Front Office Sports. So I’m just going to ask, you Ian, introduce yourself, tell us about yourself, your career and just everything that just is. We really want to know.

Ian Thomas:

Well, Chris, thank you for having me on the podcast. Really excited to be here. Yeah. I’m the editor over at Front Office Sports. We are a digital sports business publication covering everything from major professional leagues to college sports, to amateur sports, to e-sports, to any aspect of the sports business industry. We’re looking to see why things are happening, what’s happening and break some news, have some fun in the process. For myself, I joined Front Office Sports about 15 months ago as editor. I’d been at the Sports Business Journal for about five years prior. Before that, I was a financial journalist covering topics that are not as fun as sports, which we may not be on this podcast if you were talking about private equity investments or M&A transactions and things of that nature.

Ian Thomas:

But it’s been a fun journey just to sort of see this industry over these last six, seven years. So just kind of just ratchet up to that next level, I think. The impact that the sports business industry has on life, communities, just general popular culture, I think is just, people are recognizing how much influence these teams, athletes, leagues, the sports themselves, the industries they prop up, the companies involved kind of have on our collective lives, and I think are showing a new level of interest in the business itself. And it’s really been fun to kind of be at that intersection of, like I said, sports business and how kind of the general fan and population kind of consumes it all at the same time. So yeah, it’s a good gig, so I’m glad I have it.

Chris Wise:

Good gig. So take that a bit further, more about you. What makes you tick? What really ignites that professional fire? And if there are other fires you’re talking about, go ahead.

Ian Thomas:

Fair enough. The thing for me, and this has always been kind of my interest in journalism specifically, has been kind of what drives some of the decisions that that folks make. And I think early on in my career, even when I was in college sort of studying to do this sort of thing, the money that makes things move has always been kind of fascinating to me. And how that kind of comes together, how people are seeing, trying to look ahead of the curve and see what’s next on the horizon. What can I invest in today that hopefully is something that has longer legs longterm? Can obviously make a return on investment, but also, in a lot of cases, enrich a community, provide something that’s not there before, things of that nature.

Ian Thomas:

And I think for me, as I’ve gone deeper and deeper into sports to sort of see the really smart thinkers that are out there, the people that are trying to predict what people, how they’re going to want to consume sports, how they’re going to want to consume entertainment, what they want the stadium experience to be like. Granted, we really don’t know what that’s going to look like at all right now, but just all the things that kind of have to go into making these really big bets on different things and hopefully seeing them through success and pushing them through tough waters, all that kind of stuff. That’s really what interests me and kind of gets me excited each day to go and talk to different folks and help our reporters try to find those stories. And it’s really been filling, I think this year with everything, the craziness going on and people trying to figure out their go forward strategy to kind of chronicle as much as we can about that through this, yeah, unprecedented year, to say the least.

Chris Wise:

Was journalism your area of concentration in college?

Ian Thomas:

Yeah. So my mom’s a teacher, and growing up I always thought I would kind of follow in her path. At a certain point, I think some writing was always in the back of my mind. I always really enjoyed sports specifically. I think something kind of just switched for me going from sort of talking about things that had happened and trying to predict to some degree of… Predict may be the wrong word, but talk about what may have, what people are looking at forward, try to understand more of their thinking versus kind of just diving in and saying, “This is why we think this happened. Let’s talk people who are doing it now and trying to make things happen.” That’s where I think I kind of switched from the idea of kind of teaching, well, I think does some overlap in terms of approach, to more on the journalism front.

Ian Thomas:

I went to some undergrad. I switched into journalism and did that for a bit. I went to graduate school as well to really kind of focus on the business side of journalism, just to make sure that I had kind of a minded my Ps and Qs on that front to make sure that I could kind of get a better grasp of what an earnings report is and how companies report financials, and all things of that nature that a little bit tougher than some of the other things that we do. But yeah, it’s one of those things where it’s a learning process, especially in the sports side. So much stuff happens new every day, always new initiatives where you kind of have to stay top of your game, otherwise I think stuff will pass you by pretty quick.

Chris Wise:

Oh yeah. Where’d you go to school?

Ian Thomas:

So I grew up on Long Island, probably about 45, 50 miles east of Manhattan. So I went to Stony Brook University, which is a state school out here. Then I went to CUNY Graduate School of Journalism, which is part of the city university of New York Network here in Manhattan. And yeah, New York hasn’t gotten rid of me yet. So I’m still here happily waving our flags for that.

Chris Wise:

Got you. Okay. Let’s switch over to Front Office Sports. And Front Office Sports, compared to other business models, has kind of burst onto the scene and appears to be doing very well. Can you kind of unpack what has made it work and what’s it look like going forward?

Ian Thomas:

Sure. So I think specifically in this kind of sports business space, the previous place I worked, Sports Business Journal, with all due respect to them, it’s the thousand pound gorilla of this marketplace. They’ve been doing it for decades at this point. A lot of respect, well-deserved respect, and continue to really kind of uphold that really great standard of journalism. I think at the same time, there was opportunity for more companies covering the space. I think at the end of the day, if you have a 5, $6 billion industry with one main publisher, you’re probably missing a lot of things and that’s no fault of theirs, it’s just a lot is going on.

Ian Thomas:

And I think our opportunity, as we saw it, was really to kind of jump in there and tell some of those stories in a different way. Tell some of the stories that weren’t being covered as much, speak to maybe somehow a different audience, maybe that younger sports business professional versus the more accomplished one that Sports Business Journal has traditionally spoken to. And I think there’s also that point, like I said, I think fans today are more attuned to the business side of sports than ever before. They’re more attuned to the deals that Lebron James has than they may have been about… Bo Jackson’s a bad example, but athletes in the 1990s. And I think ultimately as the business around sports has grown, there’s so many different companies that want a piece, want to be involved.

Ian Thomas:

And I think our sort of mission was to basically, let’s really try to dive into the different aspects of that. Let’s try to show more of that pop culture connection. Let’s try to show more of that, but also introduce it in a way that I think a front office executive at a team or a league could read one of our stories and learn some interesting, but my dad, who was a fervent sports fan, would read a story and say, “Hey, I get this, I understand why. I know it’s occurring.” I think we really tried to lean into that niche a bit. I mean, I call it a niche. Like I said, sports is probably the biggest industry in America outside of maybe Hollywood or music in terms of people’s knowledge of it. And I think just kind of shining that business light, showing why things are happening in that sports world and how business is somehow behind that, or money, or whatever is kind of guiding that.

Ian Thomas:

So, so far so good, I think. People have responded well to it. I think with the sports shutdown these last number of months, or I should say last number of months before kind of came back and earnest in the last, I guess 90 days or so. For the most part, all that was being discussed was off the field business decisions, which I think gave us a different opportunity. Albeit, we much would have rather had Opening Day and March Madness and the NBA Finals, Stanley Cup Final, golf, tennis, NASCAR, all those things would have been great if they just happened normally. But having that opportunity to some degree of everything now is a business off the field storyline kind of gave us a different chance to kind of showcase the work that we’ve been doing and hopefully gained some leadership followship out of it.

Chris Wise:

When you’re talking to folks at some of the teams and leagues, how are they feeling? We do a lot of research with fans, but how are the front office folks feeling about the execution. Knowing that they need a revenue stream clearly, how do they feel about the execution? Again, not from a revenue level, but from an emotional how’s it happening level, and how does that translate as they go forward?

Ian Thomas:

Well, I think, for the folks that I’ve spoken to, I think it’s a little mixed right now. I think for a lot of people, there’s excitement around some of the things that are being done to reach fans differently. I think a lot of trends that were kind of occurring are getting just fast-forwarded a million times, things like reaching fans through social and media, and digital connections, and doing things to reach them in their homes, investments in things like apps, or different kind of growing that fan community different ways. Leaning into e-sports and things like Twitch. Or for an athlete, doing stuff where they are on Instagram Live talking directly to fans or different kinds of business models where maybe they’re more focused on selling things through an e-commerce store versus a retail footprint. Things of that nature I think are already happening have just been 10X fast-forwarded to make it happen because some of the other things can’t occur.

Ian Thomas:

I think there is also a little concern and trepidation just because so much of the traditional industry is based on the back of fans, going to games and spending a lot of money and it’s just not able to happen. And I think if you look right now at the industry, or some of the headlines over the last six or eight months in terms of furloughs and pay cuts, and what’s going to happen when you just don’t have those revenue streams. I think there’s a lot of concern about where the industry really goes to make money from here.

Ian Thomas:

I think unfortunately there’s a lot of people who have lost their jobs period in all industries. And I think the sports industry, not that it was always a strong haven for things like that because teams and efforts always seem to shoot for the moon and sometimes miss, but I think there are a lot of folks that, that realize maybe their jobs right now, or they’re working on the ticket sales side and sponsorship side, there’s concern there about, can we even bring fans into the building in 2021? What does that look like if we can’t sell 20,000 seats, do we need X number of ticket sales folks?

Ian Thomas:

Obviously, fingers crossed, we get to a point where the pandemic is a little bit more under control and we get to a position where that is allowable. But I think there’s still a question of how fan interacts with the team and how you sort of make money off that relationship, that this moment in time may have changed forever. And that there are teams that are spending money trying to figure that out. There are some teams that unfortunately are going to have to cut back, and that usually means personnel until someone else figures it out. So I think there is that nervousness there, just sort of like, in some cases, what does this mean for my job or my career trajectory or my paycheck in the moment, kind of thing.

Chris Wise:

Right. I’ve talked to lots of folks in Front Office that are no longer employed, and those that are still employed that now have double or triple the duties that they had before, but there’s still a nervousness. But some are attacking with so much vigor that it’s been rejuvenating for those that stayed. And for those that have left, not so much, but it will be tough.

Chris Wise:

So then I was thinking, we started to see generational impact. We’ve looked at, well, you brought up, you touched on e-sports for a second. We saw that on a really sharp curve of increased engagement, and since the pandemic, it’s just kind of skyrocketed as far as fans getting involved and bringing a younger audience to sports, and that’s interesting in and of itself. And we’re also seeing that even now older groups are coming into that space. And so I’m just thinking about what generational impact, and along with our changing ethnic makeup of the population, how do you see all that changing the way sports are marketed and any operational imperatives that have to take place?

Ian Thomas:

Yes, it’s a great question. There’s so much money flowing into e-sports specifically trying to see if that’s the place that explodes next. I grew up as a video game player and still follow it. And I know to your point, there’s a generational shift there. I think there’s people obviously younger than I am that maybe the first team or first athlete they loved plays for an e-sports organization. And I think for a certain generation of people, even people my age, early 30s, that’s crazy to think in some capacity. Their favorite person who is a professional something is a YouTuber. And I think ultimately that’s where some of this will go. I think so many leagues are trying to… There was already a discussion [inaudible 00:14:51] leagues about pace of play and fan engagement on a daily… I mean, look at some of the efforts that were being done in Major League Baseball even before everything that happened with the pandemic now to make sure that they can capture the attention span of that younger generation.

Ian Thomas:

And I think leagues and teams will look to adapt to that. I think e-sports is in a very unique position to sort of capture that audience. I think challenge obviously that continues for e-sports is that, I don’t know if it’s a very approachable thing for people that aren’t attuned to what it is to get engaged. And I’m not sure that traditional sports being played in the video game format is the way in for others also. I think if you’re a football fan, I’m not sure if you’re a diehard Madden, NFL viewer kind of thing, unless that’s really of interest to you. I think ultimately it’s going to come down to that digital connection. I think for smart teams, smart leagues, and smart athletes in some respects, it’s going to be kind of leveraging the different aspects to success.

Ian Thomas:

I mean, you see someone like Juju Smith-Schuster, who I think is one of the most well-positioned athletes to sort of take advantage of all these things. He has a Twitch channel, he’s out there gaming, he’s part of a clan, if you will, the team. But at the same time, you’ll see him on Sunday with the Steelers or whatever team he ends up being long-term, if that changes. And he’s got his traditional sponsorship that he does. He’s on social media interacting with fans in a different way. And I think about how leagues can use that to their advantage and making sure that they’re still sort of ahead of the curve on social things that I think kind of help the NBA position itself as probably the most followed league right now is the way they’ve embraced social media.

Ian Thomas:

And I think you get to this, where are we in five, 10 years? I think how leagues interact with e-sports, and you see the investments that every league is taking on that front. I think that’s a pathway into it. And like you said before, if a fan is not in the stadium, maybe they don’t go to games anymore, but they follow a team on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, Twitch, and they’re just engaged there. Are they a more valuable fan than someone who buys just a season ticket? I think that the equation of where the most, a team get the most value out of a fan in that sense, that may be changing as well. So I don’t have a great answer for what that looks like. People much smarter than me probably are trying to figure it out themselves. But I do find it really interesting if that’s kind of the route we kind of go there.

Chris Wise:

Yeah. I’m intrigued with, I’ve been a firm believer for a long time that part of the entertainment of sports is not just what’s being played on the field. It’s not just the players. It’s the entirety of the experience. And it’s bringing people together and a sense of comradery around a team and a sense of community around that team that feeds our soul, if you will. And will our souls not to be needed to be fed in the same way if we shift totally to e-sports? Now I’m thinking a few decades down the road, but I’ve even had some crazy thoughts around how do you incorporate the two?

Chris Wise:

So ,I was standing on the field one time in Dallas, at AT&T Stadium on the 50 yard line, I’m going, “Can you imagine, fans in the stands, there’s not really a player on the field, just holographic images and the players in the backroom with their controllers being who they are and they all have a personality? Somehow I still believe that could happen because we still want those fans in the stands and everything can be monetized that way. And no one gets hurt. So I deviated, sorry. Anyway, I can still see that. I feel it on the field.

Ian Thomas:

I think you’re right though. I think ultimately, and I think about some of the things that I’ve seen I think are most successful these last number of years in sports. And Major League Soccer comes to mind there, and its expansion. And I think going into markets where maybe not the most well known teams or under leveraged communities and really building a fandom around something. Especially as you mentioned before, different kind of demographics. Maybe fans that weren’t spoken to in a way by a traditional stick and ball sport. Atlanta United is a great example of that. It’s a city full of younger folks that came from other places, that didn’t have a connection to the Falcons or the Braves, or didn’t grow up in the Maddox, Glavin, that era of team.

Ian Thomas:

And all of a sudden, here’s a new team that speaks a language they agree with. And all of a sudden there’s 70,000 people show up for a soccer game and of all different races, colors, ages, ethnicities, beliefs. And I think that’s a beautiful thing. And I think e-sports can maybe play a similar role. Like you said, it’s tough to see that city connection to e-sports in the same way, but if you’re a younger fan that… To your point, I’m from New York, most of the teams that I like haven’t been good for a long time. A team steps on the scene and starts doing well and it connects to me in a different way, and a younger generation of fans, I think that that creates a new community around it that I think could be fostered in a way that makes them love sports in a way that maybe it’s different than you or I, but still is great for that community and that growth.

Chris Wise:

Right. And the community doesn’t have to be the immediate geographic community, it’s the community in which they hover, that they live. Shift over to just as you gather information. So now from an editorial perspective, has your approach to gathering reliable information shifted at all during this year?

Ian Thomas:

Yeah. I mean, I think especially with the sports landscape, being here specifically in New York, on a normal time of year right now, lay out the sports calendar and there’s dozens of events that are happening in a given night. And I think there’s always the best place to meet folks are in a setting like that, going to a game, seeing how things work, getting ideas that way. All of that has just been obviously just completely stripped away. I haven’t done an interview in person since February, which for a journalist is a bit of a weird circumstance. And I think those face-to-face interactions, that’s where you’re going to really be able to get to know that person or even just casually kind of have a conversation and understand them a little bit better.

Ian Thomas:

And I think, like I said, especially in the sports business space where so much of what you discuss or talk about is things that will come to life during a game. How are you doing a promotion or a sponsorship in an interesting way? What’s your game presentation look like? What is the stadium like? If you’re focusing on answering that million dollar question of how fans spend money with your team, usually it’s done in person. And physically seen that is sometimes the easiest way to understand why teams or leagues are doing the things that they do. And that obviously just isn’t happening both for us to just kind of understand it, but also for teams and leagues to do that. So it’s been a little interesting just trying to connect with people.

Ian Thomas:

I mean, on one hand, people are a little more available, which is nice. You don’t have people traveling all over the world and saying, “Hey, listen, I’m on a flight for the next 12 hours, but when I land, I’ll talk to you.” It’s more like, “I’m sitting in my kitchen. So give me a call.” And that’s good on one hand, on the other hand it’s obviously, as we think about the industry, and like I said, some of the networking things and something that as a journalist you kind of just have to do, that’s kind of thrown that awry. So it’s hard to say if that’s good or bad. Some things I think certain people have really leaned into it and enjoyed it and embrace the digital nature of things. Some things I think people are still kind of struggling with, but hopefully, fingers crossed, to some level of middle ground normality sooner than later.

Chris Wise:

How do your contacts, as they move forward and look to the future, look to trusted organizations like yours to be supportive of the business? What role do you play to support them and vice versa?

Ian Thomas:

Yeah, I mean, and this is kind of where our relationship with some of these teams and leagues always is interesting because on one hand we’re always tasked with talking about some of the new things they’re doing, some of the different things that they do, highlighting some of the interesting executives and interesting moves they’re making. At the same time, it’s also our responsibility to make sure that when things aren’t going right or things are going bad, or they make the wrong choices, that we also showcase that as well. And I think it comes to that level of their understanding that we’re going to treat them fairly and give them a chance to speak and give them the opportunity to say, “This is why we’re doing what we’re doing and hopefully that’s what you’re publishing.” That sort of thing.

Ian Thomas:

I mean, it’s always going to be that give and take in that sense. At the end of the day, our position, our place in the world is not just to be a cheerleader for sports, but also just to really just say, “Hey, this is what’s going on. This is why. This is why they say it is, and this is what other folks think about it.” And I think as long as we stick to that sort of thing, people understand that that’s what our mission is in that respect. And thankfully they’ve responded well to it. I think it just comes down to making sure that we always stay sort of fair in our approach in that sense.

Chris Wise:

And that’s what keeps you trusted.

Ian Thomas:

I hope so. Again, I can’t speak to it, but I think at the end of the day, making sure that we treat them, I think, as they would want to be treated. I think that’s ultimately… And treat everyone in the same respect. I think we’re not holding anyone to different standards, but at the same time, we’re holding them to a high one. So making sure that that’s the case.

Chris Wise:

Excellent. That really helps lead into the next question. So unpack what you believe are the top five moves that have happened related to the business of sports since March of this year and why.

Ian Thomas:

So I think ultimately we’ll look back and sort of see the embrace of this bubble format really kind of having a long-term impact. I think the control of the assets in that respect, even in times where eventually fans are allowed in mass back at games. I think this bubble idea can continue. I think the idea of having the ability to have your sponsors presented in interesting ways, having all your players on a campus and creating content around that.

Ian Thomas:

And there’s a company right now called Athletes Unlimited that is doing something really interesting with women’s sports, especially with softball right now. And basically even before this their idea was, let’s bring all the players into one environment, we’ll have kind of control over that environment and showing the content, having really behind the scenes… We saw that with things like Hard Knocks and Last Chance U and these really behind the scenes, in depth thing that I think connect with fans in interesting ways. And I think having everyone kind of connected in that sense in one place, I wouldn’t be surprised if we do see that long-term occurring more, especially with media rights deals now driving, and sponsorships driving, a lot of the revenue, as opposed to just traditional ticket sales. I think the continued discussion around NIL, and yes, we’re obviously, name, image, and likeness at the college level, even though college sports has mostly paused, although we do have some college football coming back.

I think the whole discussion right now, especially around the power that individual collegiate athletes are holding, I mean some of the things that, say Trevor Lawrence pushed out and hopefully for a positive way, got football rolling again, in some respects. Or, you see some of the big 10 athletes and some of the pushback that they brought to the table when their decisions, when the conference decision was made. Obviously I hope for the best, that that was the right decision, but you see… I think there are some shifting of the power at the college level to the athlete. Long term, I think, as we think about NIL and how those athletes potentially make money, could be really, really powerful for that space.

Ian Thomas:

I think ultimately, another one that comes to mind is just sort of the way that athletes are embracing digital and, and their own platforms. I think having this time now, where they’ve had a little more time to themselves, has been really interesting. You see someone like a Jimmy Butler, who creates a business out of selling coffee in his hotel room, in the NBA bubble, and now has a brand and potentially has a deal with Lululemon. I think athletes really understand that how well they can harness their digital platforms to build businesses around them. I mean, LeBron James has done this exponentially well these last number of years, but I think athletes with a little more time on their hands are going to be even trying to do that even more. I think, as we discussed before, e-sports, and the moment that it’s had this last bit of time has been really interesting. I’m very curious to see if can ride that momentum out and, and see where it goes from there.

Ian Thomas:

I would say last, I think the platform that this moment has given to some perceived to be smaller sports, sports that have been first out of the gate, has been really interesting, and hopefully beneficial to their growth long term. One that comes to mind is the NWSL, the National Women’s Soccer League, which was the first league in the United States to come back to play full-time. The ratings on CBS were incredible, and I think coming out of the World Cup last year or the U.S. Women’s National Team once again played well, obviously won the World Cup. How does that momentum change that league trajectory long term. The spotlight that it got, it was able to be on a major network, because not other sports were happening. But it also proved that it deserves to be there, based on the viewership.

Ian Thomas:

So I’m really intrigued to see how some of those leagues, something like maybe the Professional Bull Riders Association, like they had a platform, as well. Can they take advantage of this longer term? I think some of these smaller leagues, perceived smaller leagues, that have gotten a little more of a spotlight, can they maintain that fan base? I’m really curious to see if that is the case.

Chris Wise:

Interesting. Looking beyond the disruption, what’s been the greatest threat to live sports attendance?

Ian Thomas:

Yeah. It’s a lot of things happening together. There was a story that came out on our platform this week, that I’ll quickly promote, that was asking the question of, where does capacity in stadiums go from here? I think there was already a lot of discussions around, as I said before, with the revenue from sponsorship, with the revenue from media rights increasing, and potentially fan-driven revenue, if you will, from ticketing, concessions, et cetera, being relatively stagnant or a smaller piece of that pie long term, how reliant are teams and leagues going to be on fans going forward in the building? You’ve already seen stadiums where they’ve ratcheted that capacity number down. That’s obviously creating more demand, which isn’t a bad thing. But empty seats is never a good story to try to tell it or try to get the folks in the building.

Ian Thomas:

I think with everything happening right now, and just the concerns around, how do we get people back in the building safely, I wouldn’t be surprised if more leagues try to go, or more teams and ownership groups as they look to build stadiums, decide to go a little bit smaller. I do think we’ll probably see more a trend towards more and more suites, which we’ve already seen, things where you kind of have that more self-contained environment, versus that broader general admission kind of audience or space. Until there is a broader solution for this virus, and even frankly, I think, viruses like this in general, and how our response as a population kind of… or as a country, as a world, frankly, how quickly we can respond to them and contain them.

Ian Thomas:

It’s going to be a hard sell to say, “Hey, we’re going to base our business model around having 90,000 people in the same place, packed shoulder to shoulder, for four-plus hours.” I’m sure across this country, there’s 90,000 people who would sign up for that right at this moment. I think there’s probably a heck of a lot more who would have concerns on top of paying top premium dollar to get into those buildings.

Ian Thomas:

So it’s just, I don’t have a great answer. I’m certainly not a virologist or anything of that nature. But I do think until we can, until there’s a true proven solution for how we, as a community, country, et cetera, address these things, I’d imagine not many teams are going to be willing to base their business around that kind of, that business model, if you will.

Chris Wise:

We already saw pre-COVID that there were lots of, there was a growing number of empty seats in stands for across many different sports and that it was being talked about and addressed in different ways. I have a sense this disruption has accelerated those discussions. So learning how to, or figuring out how to, bring revenue without just that ticket revenue, I’m sure has been on the minds of many of those front office folks for a while.

Chris Wise:

And also, the downsizing of venues, or rightsizing of venues. I think of Bristol Motor Speedway that had 160,000 seats, those seats will never be filled again. And I believe they understand that. So they’ve been trying to, they’ve been addressing that for some time. Yeah, it’s just really interesting.

Chris Wise:

I’m going to go off card a little bit here and say, has some of the reluctance to shift pre-COVID, because due to a sense of, and I’ll let you play with my words, but arrogance or disbelief, or just kind of hiding, and sticking their head in the sand and not wanting to address the issues because things were really good and they were making lots of money, why the slow change. Now, we know why it’s accelerated, but why the slow change before?

Ian Thomas:

Well, I think, as anything, it’s probably one of those situations, if it’s not too broken, let’s not fix it. But also, the idea of spending money to potentially make money down the road. I think you’ve seen progressive leagues and operations where they’ve invested heavily in digital, in that second screen experience, or at home discussion. I mean, read back on some of Adam Silver’s thoughts specifically, on kind of what that fan experience could be like at home. I think ultimately, to your point, as the viewership experience in your own home, your own living room, on your own TV, increases, the proposition of spending $400, $500 to bring a family of four to a sporting event versus we’ll sit in our couch and make hamburgers on our grill and spend 12 bucks and probably have a better experience.

Ian Thomas:

You’re already leaning towards staying home, I think for a lot of folks, especially for people who don’t have that discretionary income to spend on something like this, or even in some cases, the attention span of kids who you’re going to go to a baseball game, and after the third inning, they’re going to want to run around and play, and you spent 60 bucks on that seat, and is that, was that the best use of your money? Or now, you’re buying 10 things from the store that they might leave in the car or forget on the floor, and you think about the business proposition there.

Ian Thomas:

I think long term, I think exactly to your point, there’s plenty of organizations that I think are starting to think about how they can extend that relationship into someone’s home through an app, through a community that’s created on a social platform, through a digital fan club, as opposed to an in-person one. I think the challenge there continues, and this is probably to your point, why people have been slow to do it is, it’s much easier to collect $80 from a ticket than it is to make sure you’re collecting $80 from that person who’s sitting at home doing that sort of thing. And I think also from a data collection, point of view it’s easier to… You have that person in the stadium, you have a lot more information on who they are, what they like, where they’re spending their, money versus that shadowy person that follows you on Twitter, that you don’t really know all of those things.

Ian Thomas:

I think smart organizations right now, if they haven’t already, are probably spending money on that kind of data collection on spending and really trying to understand those fans that might be perceived to be on the fringe. But the reality is, maybe they’re just as diehard fans, but couldn’t afford the couple thousand dollars that it was for a season ticket. I think you’re going to see a lot more opportunities there in terms of just trying to understand more about that person. I think there’s still going to be a lot of organizations that just try to really hold onto whatever is left of that ticketing market. I do think that there will still be money to be made there.

Ian Thomas:

I think especially as we get, as you said, the right-sized venue idea, I think a lot of folks are going to be either priced out of some of these buildings or frankly, there’s just not going to be the inventory for them to get in there. I think you’re going to see this shift, I think, of the haves and have-nots for teams and leagues in that sense. Can they monetize those fans that now are at home for financial reasons, for time reasons, or frankly for personal safety reasons? It’s going to be interesting, I think, how they can improve on that at-home viewing experience even more so, but how they can make sure that that connection is even as strong for folks that don’t, aren’t in the building, for example.

Chris Wise:

I’m going to jump to maybe my last question, but and really down the path of a viewing and at home and jump to the article. I saw where Fox is wanting to pay, may be willing to pay $2 billion for Sunday Night Football rights, double what they paid this past year. Unpack that from a business perspective, particularly when we talk… we see TV viewing at least wired viewing, going away and more streaming. That’s a significant increase from one year to another, and probably won’t… It’s not a standalone story.

Ian Thomas:

Yeah. It’s interesting, I think. We’re seeing the storylines right now around NFL viewership so far this season. We could talk for a couple of hours on the reasons there alone, so I’ll probably let that one sit for a bit. But I think to your point specifically, I think for some of these networks, live sports is kind of the last bastion of appointment viewing. I might be getting this statistic wrong, but I believe, was it 41 of the 50 most watched programs in 2019 were NFL games? Over the last 10 days, the top 10 television broadcasts were NFL games, just across the country. I think what, was it, pretty much every major sports event since the shutdown basically has been the top, most-viewed thing since Academy Awards. Basically anything, the only things that can drive people to sit in front of a TV and watch it nowadays are the real-

Ian Thomas:

People that sit in front of a TV and watch it nowadays are the really, really high-end award shows. And those aren’t doing great either, and sports. And, predominantly the NFL. How they sort of rationalize spending that much money on the NFL product, when you see what’s happening with the ad sales market, I’m not sure. I do think there’s going to be a little bit of a bust there at some point where the market is going to have to correct itself slightly. I mean, I do worry to some degree what happens with right fees for those, perceived second tier properties. The NFL is going to get its money. And I would agree that you’re going to see astronomical amounts of money paid for them and who knows what happens long-term?

Ian Thomas:

I do question what happens to a property like the NHL, whose deals are up with NBC after this next cycle. And there’s a good chance that NBC is going to have to pay through the nose to keep Sunday night football or try to get another NFL package. And NBC is already considering cuts because they’re trying to shift towards Peacock and this new OTT platform there. Which, I’m not sure how that’s going to do, but you’re seeing things like ESPN+, CBS All Access. Or, I guess, it’s Paramount+ now. All these different kind of direct to consumer OTT platforms to try to make that business work. And I’m not sure if having 90 subscriptions is where they’re going to make that kind of money, but, I think, as there’s going to have to be sort of semi-reckoning, at some point, in terms of just rights’ fees going up and up and up and up and cable networks not seeing the residual money coming back in on the opposite side.

Ian Thomas:

I do think, when it comes to stuff like the NFL, the Olympics, really those gold tier sports properties, I think the sky is going to be the limit because I think the networks know that they’re not going to drive that much viewership with original programming, but we sure as can do it with Sunday Night Football and Monday Night Football and those AFC, NFC windows on a Sunday.

I just don’t know… Like I said, where that happens business-wise for those second-tier properties where you’re not going to see those 15, 16 million people coming in. Maybe it’s closer to 400,000. The money might dry up there.

Chris Wise:

You talk about NFL being in the top viewership, but in my understanding, while they’re in those positions, they still don’t have the same number of eyeballs that they had a year ago.

Ian Thomas:

Correct.

Chris Wise:

And so, that’s what drives revenue. It’s the eyeballs, not just the position of where they are in viewership. So, I’m hoping that, that gets passed, that the changes after people’s… I’m doing some research as it relates to people’s psyche and how they’re dealing right now. We started tracking fan sentiment during the pandemic, people said they would watch any sport that they could, live. They’re tired of reruns in sports, they’re tired of rerun in regular programming. They got nothing else to do. They’ve got to have something, they really want something fresh to… Especially in the area of sports.

Chris Wise:

But truth is, when sports came back… Well, for instance, the first NASCAR race that was televised had a great viewership. The second one dropped down. And that was, overall I think, great for that sport because it brought new people to the sport that had ignored it before. And then, seeing what with Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin starting a team, that’s great to build a base of new fans. And I’m excited about that. But back to the viewership… So as we’re looking at folks, they said they’d come back, they have not necessarily come back the way they said, because I think when they said they’d come back, they were understanding that from their point of experience, of knowledge and that’s the way it used to be.

Chris Wise:

So they thought sport’s going to be back on TV, great. Everybody’s going to be yelling and screaming. And we know that’s not what it is. And so, I’ve likened it more to now feels like when we’re watching, it’s like a pickup game, “Hey, you want to play some ball?” And you think of poor university, North Carolina, that has a three-week window of no games between games. And they couldn’t find anybody to come play. It was like, “Hey, come on, let’s go play a game, come on. Let’s go. Let’s go to the lot and play.” That’s what it feels like for so many people, that it’s not quite… It’s sports, but it’s not quite the reality they remember. And their mind hasn’t shifted, in reality yet. And so it’s making a little difficult a month amidst… I’ll try that again. Along with all the other areas of their lives that they’re having to deal with, it’s just almost overwhelming.

Chris Wise:

And, until people can settle down. I mean, people generally have trouble accepting change. Some better than others. Now we’re all forced to deal with change and it’s having a major impact across the board, including sports. And it also points to why we need, really sports, more than ever to help soothe some of that unknown and allow us to cheer and escape, for a moment, and say, “Damn, that was great.” So, it’ll be interesting. And yeah, I look forward, with great hope, of what lies ahead. And at the same time, knowing that it’s going to be a whole lot different than, when as a kid, I was in Busch Stadium in St. Louis, watching Mark McGwire hit a home run, and then everything that happened after that. The world is different from that point in time. And so, yeah. But I still love baseball.

Ian Thomas:

That’s fair. I think it’s interesting though, too, to your point, I think, especially on the viewership front, there’s always a desire to do an apples to apples comparison. And I think to your point, this year is so unique. It’s hard. I mean, there’ve been a lot of numbers the last numbers of weeks that suggests that even though maybe some of the viewership for individual properties are down, more folks are watching sports content than ever before.

Ian Thomas:

And I think that you look at the NFL ratings over the weekend on Sunday, on aggregate, they generally were down, but the pool of people watching sports that particular day was markedly up from past years. And you think about… Recently, the one Sunday, it was like Serena Williams was playing in the US Open, you had an NBA playoff game, NHL playoff game, multiple NFL games. I think you had golf on that day. You had, I believe… I don’t want to be quoted on this per se, but I guess I am, a NASCAR race that day as well. So, I mean, that’s like six premium sporting events, that in a normal year you would get seen… Tour de France was on that morning as well. So seven or eight properties that normally would get this huge spotlight based on where they were. And in theory, you could be split across that board there.

Ian Thomas:

So I think, to your point, a sport like NASCAR, I’m very curious to see where they go next, in terms of, does that viewership change in any way? How much of that audience… Like you said, that came on, the early stages, was a new audience and that stuck with them? And how much of that audience is just say, “Hey, I love NASCAR, but you put that versus the Panthers, I’m watching the Panthers on a weekend.” And that’s okay. I think, sports are going to do well when they understand where they fit in that hierarchy and what they can do to fill those fans’ needs outside of that window. When they’re watching a baseball game or they love tennis, but they also love auto racing.

Ian Thomas:

I think, understanding that is probably where, I think, as the audience gets more fragmented, it’s going to be more and more important, especially when it comes to… Like we’ve said many times, monetizing that audience in a certain way. And maybe that’s for the better. It’s not the worst thing in the world if an audience is a little bit smaller, but they are diehards. If you have a NASCAR fan, if that audience gets a little bit smaller, but those people are watching every second of that broadcast, buying merchandise on the app, engaging with the drivers, helping support iRacing, or other properties that NASCAR deems as important to them, that might be even better. So, TBD, but I’m kind of interested to see how it all shakes out.

Chris Wise:

Ian, I really appreciate you spending time with us today and your insights. You’ve been great. And I hope we get to talk again soon. And this has been Fired Up, a podcast from Designsensory Intelligence. Ian, take care.

Ian Thomas:

Thanks again. Take care.